I don't think I'm ever going to get my head around the reasoning a Christian goes through to get to the conclusion that the killing of unborn children can be dangerous, so we should make it safer. That we should make it completely legal, and then do our very best to talk women out of it.
Or that we should lobby government to take our money and then give it to our neighbours. I missed that verse that says 'the government should love your neighbour for you'. I missed it so completely that I'm completely baffled by Christians thinking that it's more important to lobby government to do the things the church is called to do than it is to lobby government to do the things it is called to do (like, you know, enforce the Godly rules that killing children is wrong).
It does no good to tell me that you know someone who is poor and can't afford something, and that is why you are voting for someone who you think will do something for them. Why aren't you doing something for them?
God bless America. Lord have mercy.
11/04/2008
on a couple of things I'm not sure I'll ever understand.
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I'm completely baffled by Christians thinking that it's more important to lobby government to do the things the church is called to do than it is to lobby government to do the things it is called to do
Yup.
With you on this one.
As an American in one of the "battleground states", thank you for your comments today. Lots of scared people in the US today. This morning while reading scripture I was drawn to the prayer of Habakkuk:
"LORD, I have heard of your fame;
I stand in awe of your deeds, O LORD.
Renew them in our day,
in our time make them known;
in wrath remember mercy."
"..baffled by Christians"
That's the bewilderment indeed. The world is the world. But to see Christians, not only endorsing these things, but even campaigning for them, is very baffling truly.
America is in deep mire.
Have a blessed day. The Lord Jesus has all authority in heaven and in earth.
Yes, killing unborn children is wrong. BUT... it's going to happen anyway. When it was totally illegal, it still happened, often endangering the lives of the mothers too. Under Bush, who was supposedly pro-life, millions of unborn babies still died. If abortion was made totally illegal tomorrow, in the USA or UK, would people stop killing unborn babies? Of course not.
IMO it's ridiculous that some people voted purely on this, which isn't a political issue anyway; it's a moral and religious one. McCain was not going to stop abortion, and I very much doubt if they will increase under Obama.
I am personally very puzzled why some folk apparently want millions more babies to be born, into families that clearly do not want them - or, in many cases, cannot afford them - and yet do not want these impoverished families to be given sufficient money to feed and clothe their babies.
Why is it considered worse for a baby to die in the womb, than to die of cold or malnutrition in infancy, or to be beaten and abused because he/she is not wanted? Perhaps if the poorest families were given more money, they would not choose, in desperation, to abort their babies.
As for why people want the government to help the poor, I guess it's because the church, generally, doesn't. We lived in the USA for two years. We attended a church there which ran an occasional soup kitchen for the hungry. Most of those who were given food could not believe it was a Christians giving out free food. In their experience, only Communists did that kind of thing.
The economy of the USA is an appalling state after eight years of Bush. I doubt if Obama can do much to put it right in four, maybe eight years. But at least, one hopes, he won't make it worse. And that, I suspect, is the main reason that so many have voted for him. That, and his hopes to reduce war-mongering around the world. I fail to understand why the killing of innocent Iraqis, Afghans, etc, is considered more acceptable than killing the unborn.
I'm not American, but I - along with many outside the USA - am greatly relieved at the result. But I doubt if it will make a huge difference overall. In the end, as has often been said, no matter who we vote for, a politician gets elected. And all we really know of the politicians is what the media choose to tell us.
Thanks for putting forward exactly the argument I just countered in the post, Sue. Yes, babies will still be killed, no, legalizing it is not an appropriate response.
Yes, while it is within the power of politicians to make laws that allow or disallow child-murder, it is a political issue.
And thanks for giving examples of of the church doing what it should do. The answer is that the church should do more of that, and not lobby the government to do it for it. Which I think I said in the post.
You may take your calumny about those opposed to abortion not caring about child abuse elsewhere. I'm tired of hearing it and I won't allow any more of it on my blog.
Apologies - I didn't mean to upset anyone. Your sidebar says that you have no problem with people disagreeing with your posts, and I thought I was doing so agreeably. I certainly didn't intend any offence.
My main point, really, was that history shows that whichever party gets into power in the USA makes no difference to the abortion laws, or how many unborn babies are killed. Thus it makes more sense to consider global policies when casting a vote.
Sue, I don't mind disagreement, but you just reiterated the view that I posted about, and included some suggestions that implied that wanting an end to abortion means that I don't care about malnourished and abused children. Which will tend to push my cross-patch button, no matter how mellow I'm feeling.
Your second post has made a fair point, which I take. I'm not remotely convinced that Mr Obama has anything like the kind of global policies which will do the slightest good, but time will tell.
"Or that we should lobby government to take our money and then give it to our neighbours. I missed that verse that says 'the government should love your neighbour for you'. I missed it so completely that I'm completely baffled by Christians thinking that it's more important to lobby government to do the things the church is called to do than it is to lobby government to do the things it is called to do"
A lot of Christians in the 19th century took that view. They believed that the poor should be cared for by voluntary societies and churches.
Despite all the charitable giving of that era, there were still plenty of children who died cold and hungry on the streets.
Libbie, if you ever do understand it, I hope you'll write a good post explaining it. I'd love to know, myself.
I don't know any Christians that voted for Obama. At none that just take the name Christian because they went to church as a kid and like it better than any other religion they could claim as their own.
Thought i go to a reformed church. I'm in Cali and there are plenty of emergent and seeker churches where you can probably find Christians that voted Obama.
It's confusing how any human can vote that way though, because they do use the reasoning of poor people exist...i tell them it's up to the people and the government should not be controlling that.
Great post.
It is interesting that many Christians supported the Republican Rudi Giuliani as nominee, despite his pro-abortion views.
It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had Rudi Giulianni been the Republican candidate.
"McCain was not going to stop abortion, and I very much doubt if they will increase under Obama. "
Except he has stated before that he intends to work towards getting the freedom of choice act passed as law will then effectively removed any restrictions that have been placed on abortions. If it is easier to get one you honestly don't think more women will be running to the butcher shops?
"That, and his hopes to reduce war-mongering around the world. I fail to understand why the killing of innocent Iraqis, Afghans, etc, is considered more acceptable than killing the unborn. "
He has also stated that he intends to increase (as opposed to decreasing or maintaining) troop levels in Afghanistan and perhaps Pakistan. I find it sad so many people honestly think this man is going to stop wars when he has plainly indicated he intends to send more troops to battle.
Libbie,
I came here via your comment at centuri0n's blog. I am also baffled at this logic. If carried to it's conclusion, nothing would be illegal, because somewhere, somehow, people are going to do it anyway.
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
"It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had Rudi Giulianni been the Republican candidate."
I would have had to pray big time in this case. Obama who is for infanticide, partial birth abortion, and no restrictions at all up to the 9th month. And Rudi, who says he hates abortion, and if Roe was overturned he go with it. He also agreed with the ban on partial birth abortion, but he is still open to woman having abortions.
To me I see where he could be convinced that abortion is wicked, because it kills the image of God. But, maybe not.
You're right though, it would have been interesting.
I must just comment here to Sue and her reasoning about abortion happening anyway--Birth Control is cheap if not free in most places in the U.S.A.
It is so mind blowing to me that people seek abortions instead of Birth control!
Please people answer me this--if you came across someone in the process of Murdering an infant, what would you do? Would you use every FORCE at your disposal to stop it?
I really feel like becoming a law breaker in defense of the unborn--most especially those infants who will be Murdered by partial birth abortion under an Obama presidency!
I think that God has judged America this week.
Victoria, there are a few flaws in your argumentation.
1) While it is probably true that some women don't even bother with birth control, I don't think that's the case with most of the abortions. No method of birth control is 100% effective.
2)There are probably many cases where ladies, at least in theory if not usually, use birth control, but are too drunk or whatever to think about it.
3) There are cases of rape, but i really don't think that's that common of a reason even though it's an argument that pro-choicers love to give.
4) It is free in so many places but many may not know or have easy access to it.
The more legal & easy abortion is, the more that will happen. There are probably some that get them because it's so easy but wouldn't go through the trouble if it were more complicated (parent notification, expensive) or illegal. There is a sliding scale no doubt. People's stance is not just black & white, but many shades of grey as well.
I'm an optimistic person, so i see Obama's election as the perfect foundation for another Great Awakening and/or Reformation. I'm afraid of what can happen. Anything on the scale from Carter to Communist Revolution. It is true that if we want to see real change, we deal with the heart. Go beyond just making it illegal but convincing women to not want to kill babies. And to not fornicate.
I just pray for mercy that God does not give us all we deserve. America has been blessed from the beginning. Our day may be up.
Libbie- this is your blog-and I love it and for that reason I will keep this as brief as possible(also due to the fact that few people ever change their world view because of anything written on these blog sites).
I can tell that many of the people writing here are sisters in Christ from England and other countries.
It grieves me to realize that many of you only get you news from the BBC or other American hating foreign press.
I hope you all understand that you are not getting the true story about America. At least here we do have some alternative and more balanced(in favor of truth) reporting available.
The worldwide grief over 5000 innocent lives lost on 9-11 to radical murdering extremists, soon turned to hatred for an America that was determined to do whatever it took to stop that from ever happening again.
Not just our president-but our congress and senate made a decision to go after the murderers starting in Iraq.
Do some of you actually believe we have killed more innocent Iraqis than Saddam--I hope not - that is a lie from your media.
Do some of you really believe that Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction? He did and he got them out of there before the war. Truth is in very short supply in the liberal media, sisters.
I hate the war--but if you get some true news you will find out that in Iraq innocent people are beginning to be able to live better lives than they ever dreamed under Saddam, because of our efforts there. Because of our mad rush to get out of there it may be short lived indeed. As soon as America leaves I think you will see the radical murdering extremists come out of the woodwork and begin to terrorize-torture and kill, again, for that is all they know--they feast and feed on hate and murder.
It all, of course, will be blamed on America. Seems like every bad thing on the planet is our fault.
Sisters--who will stop these beasts--because I can guarantee you that it will not be the U.S the next time.
Dear sisters in England---has the BBC told you that in less than 20 years you will be an Islamic controlled nation. Brits are not having many children--but your Muslim population are having many.
Then we will see what the BBC has to say!
Libbie--I did not make these comments to be offensive--I have just had it with people accusing my nation of killing innocent Iraqis and Afghans.
Victoria, thanks for your comment. I agree that there certainly are anti-US reports that make it seem that the US army is on some kind of murder and pillage operation in Iraq, gaily killing innocent folk wherever they find them. I find it utterly bizarre, but I do know UK people who honestly believe that to be the case based on that kind of reporting. Tell them a good news story from Iraq and they just won't believe it.
I apologize for the anti-Americanism you experience, and I want to underline that I am not happy for people to rehearse that sort of thing here. I don't mind others disagreeing with me at all, and I try and keep my comment threads moderated with a very light hand, but I do have my limits, and visitors are guests. I will challenge views that are just inaccurate and unfair. I'm going to add something to my comment policy just now to that effect.
Dear Victoria
I am very sorry that you come accross that kind of thing. I never have and whilst the BBC are a very biased organisation, I always thought the UK in general was pretty pro USA. Maybe I live in cloud cuckoo land! :)
Libbie- thanks for this post. I believe both our nations have been blessed beyond measure and both now face judgement from God.
Thanks all--
please understand that I would never have made my second comment on this post if I had not gone back and reread all the comments again--after I had originally only commented on abortion.
It was in rereading those comments that I found the accusation about our warmongering and killing the innocent.
And please do not get me wrong---- as much as I love my U.S.A.--I am all to aware of our sins.
We are a nation with blood on our hands--the blood of millions of unborn children! Those are the real innocents America will answer to God for!
And Libbie--let me say again that I love your blog and visit here often--and I won't be talking about this again--I hope.
I wish we could all talk about our Great God and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, face to face 0ver a steaming pot of hot tea. He is what our lives are really all about anyway--and He is THE ONE that I love to talk about.
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